Rolling Across the World: Cory Lee on Adventure, Advocacy, and Access for All

Episode Transcript

Keith Casebonne (00:14):

What does it mean to see the world when the world wasn't designed with you in mind? How do you keep moving when doors are too narrow, paths disappear, and access is treated like an afterthought? That's what we're discussing today in our episode, Rolling Across the World, Cory Lee, on adventurer, advocacy, and access for all. And it's coming up now on Disability Deep Dive.

Jodi Beckstine (00:37):

Welcome to Disability Deep Dive. I'm Jodi.

Keith Casebonne (00:40):

And I'm Keith.

Jodi Beckstine (00:41):

Today we're talking about travel, access, and what it really means to explore the world on your own terms.

Keith Casebonne (00:47):

Our guest today is Cory Lee, a travel writer, advocate, and the creator of Curb Free with Cory Lee. Cory has traveled to all seven continents and built a global resource that helps travelers with disabilities plan adventures with real information, not guesswork.

Jodi Beckstine (01:02):

In this conversation, Cory shares lessons from the road, realities of navigating inaccessible spaces and what tourism professionals still get wrong about meaningful access.

Keith Casebonne (01:12):

Let's dive in with Cory Lee. Hello, Cory. Welcome to Disability Deep Dive. For listeners who may be new to your work, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your journey as a travel writer and advocate?

Cory Lee (01:26):

Yeah, thanks so much for having me on the podcast today. I'm really excited to be here chatting with you all. So I am Cory Lee. And back in 2013, I launched a travel blog all about my adventures around the world as a wheelchair user. I use a power wheelchair because I have spinal muscular atrophy. It is a form of muscular dystrophy and basically I don't know how much you may or may not know about SMA, but my muscles do degenerate over time and I basically have overall muscle weakness. So I've used a power wheelchair since the age of four.

(02:03):

And really when I was growing up, I would mostly take trips within the US, really only in the US actually. And just take road trips. I live in Georgia, so mostly along the East Coast, destinations in Florida, like Disney World. I'm a Disney adult. I'll admit it. And Washington DC, New York City. And then when I was 15, I went to The Bahamas for the first time, and that was really the first time where I got to try new foods and experience a different culture and meet new people. And so I thought if The Bahamas can be this close and this incredible, then what would somewhere much further be like India or Australia or Thailand or Japan or all of these far-flung places around the world? And so that really is where I think the travel bug bit me and where my brain started thinking I really need to get out there and see more of the world because it's probably pretty awesome out there.

(03:05):

So in 2013, I was graduating college with a degree in marketing and was trying to find a job and not really having any luck. And around that same time, I was also researching for a college graduation trip to Australia. And when I was researching that, I got online and pretty quickly realized that there just wasn't a lot of information about accessible travel on the internet back in 2013 anyway. Now, luckily there are more resources available, but in 2013 it was very bare. And so by there being a lack of information, that's what inspired me to really start Curb Free with Cory Lee. And it's been a whirlwind of a journey ever since.

Keith Casebonne (03:51):

Wow.

Jodi Beckstine (03:52):

That's fantastic. What a great intro. So you have a big, strong presence in the travel space. And you mentioned your degree in marketing. How did you grow this personal blog into this global resource for accessible travel?

Cory Lee (04:08):

Yeah. When I launched the blog, I had barely been anywhere. As I was saying, it was really just those road trips on the East Coast. And I had gone to The Bahamas. I went to Germany for my high school graduation trip, but that was pretty much it.

Jodi Beckstine (04:23):

Oh, nice.

Keith Casebonne (04:23):

Cool.

Cory Lee (04:24):

So I did not have a huge backlog of trips to write about, but I thought, well, I can write about the places I've been to and I can publish enough content on social media to at least try to build a following. And so for the first couple years, I was just writing about those past trips, not getting invitations from destinations. Nobody wanted to work with me because I didn't have an audience at that time. And accessible travel was so new at that time that I think that people were honestly scared of it within the travel industry because destinations thought if we invite him out and we're not truly accessible, what is it going to say about us? They were terrified in the beginning that they just weren't going to do a great job with accessibility because there were so few of us accessible travel riders then.

(05:15):

And so I started writing about past trips and really stayed consistent with publishing content on social media every single day. So even if it was just like a simple one sentence of like, "Where are you traveling to next?" Or just something very simple. I was consistent that I was going to publish content every single day. And so after a couple of years, then finally started gaining an audience and readers and I started getting invitations from destinations to come out and visit and speaking opportunities started coming to my inbox. And so after a couple of years is really when it started.

(05:54):

But those first couple of years were definitely rough. And I was constantly kind of questioning, is this ever going to be anything? Try to get a job in an advertising firm somewhere instead of doing this on my own. I didn't really know what the future held at that time.

Keith Casebonne (06:13):

Wow. Well, that persistence obviously paid off. It took a bit, but it was worth it, obviously. That's really cool.

Jodi Beckstine (06:20):

Absolutely.

Keith Casebonne (06:20):

Yeah. And of course, fast-forward to now, and well, you've visited all seven continents, so you've gotten around. And in that getting around, what were some of the biggest lessons you've learned about, I guess, accessibility and inaccessibility around the world?

Cory Lee (06:39):

Yeah. I feel like honestly, some of the places that I, before traveling there would think maybe have the worst accessibility. They often do a really great job. And it's totally possible to visit those destinations. So I remember I dreamed of visiting India for a really, really long time. I dreamed of going to see the Taj Mahal and in Delhi. And also the same with Thailand. But I thought, well, accessibility is probably really bad. So realistically, it's probably a destination that I would never get to go to. And then once I finally went, there was an accessible tour company that I used that had an adapted van with a ramp on it. It was really great. And India definitely wasn't the most accessible country in the world by any means, but it's possible. And so I think that's really a big lesson that I've learned is that while it may not be quote unquote accessible or wheelchair friendly, it is still possible if you're willing to get a bit creative at times.

(07:49):

And so I think if you have a disability, you've got to be creative and you've got to be willing to figure things out on the go because when the road, things are constantly going to happen and some things are not always going to be perfect. But I think if you have a really good attitude and you're willing and you know that for every problem there is a solution, as long as you're willing to figure it out, for most things anyway, you can find a solution.

Keith Casebonne (08:20):

What was a location that you were surprised was really highly accessible that you weren't expecting?

Cory Lee (08:28):

I would say, it's probably not like a huge dream destination to most people, but I think it should be. But Finland. I went to Helsinki, Finland and it was in January of 2016. So there was a ton of snow and I was like, this is going to be an interesting trip because number one, how am I going to navigate through the snow with a power wheelchair? Number two, accessibility probably isn't that great. How am I even going to get around the city with transportation? But when I got to Helsinki, I found out that they have over 300 wheelchair accessible taxis within the city, at Helsinki.

Keith Casebonne (09:09):

No kidding.

Cory Lee (09:11):

Every mode of public transportation, the buses, the metro were completely wheelchair accessible and even the sidewalks were heated so that the snow melts. And so I could easily roll around the city. Wow. And so it really, really surprising to me that a city like Helsinki that I had never even really heard of and didn't expect accessibility to be great does better than most places in the US even.

Keith Casebonne (09:42):

Wow. And then the inverse of that real quick, what about a place that you thought was going to be really accessible and turned out to just kind of be a mess?

Cory Lee (09:51):

I would say definitely I would have to say Paris. I had really, really high expectations for Paris. And then when I got there, it was just a terrible experience overall.

Keith Casebonne (10:05):

Oh my gosh.

Cory Lee (10:06):

Metro was not wheelchair friendly. I couldn't get on a Metro. I visited back in 2011, so I've heard that it has improved since then a bit. But in 2011, it was rough, you guys. There was only one accessible taxi in the city. To hire it for one day, it was 800 euros per day to use it. And so it was prohibitively expensive. And luckily we were only there for a day on a day trip from London. So it worked out and it was fine, but if you were there for longer than a day, it would be crazy expensive rent bad accessible van. But yeah, Paris was rough. But I mean, I've heard it's gotten better, so I would love to go back and try it again and make it's better. But yeah, in 2011, it was hard.

Jodi Beckstine (11:02):

Yeah. I wonder if they've updated things because of the Olympics and the Paralympics.

Keith Casebonne (11:05):

I was just thinking about that. Yeah.

Jodi Beckstine (11:06):

So maybe that caused a change. So you've been these places, we're talking about this range of what's possible and what still needs work. A lot of disabled travelers run into these roadblocks that other people don't even consider. What's a memorable challenge that you faced or maybe you're still even facing when traveling and how do you navigate it?

Cory Lee (11:34):

I think the biggest challenge by far, and I get questions about this daily for my audience is air travel. I think with air travel, we still have so far to go when it comes to true inclusivity and accessibility. And so when I'm flying, I cannot use the restroom on the plane. And so I cannot transfer to the onboard wheelchair and then get into the lavatory with a companion, which I would need a companion to help me in the restroom.

(12:04):

And so I'm constantly worried, am I going to need to use the restroom during the flight? So I will dehydrate myself for a day or two before the flight, kind of like starve myself so that I don't need to use the restroom on the plane. And then I'm also constantly worried throughout the flight if my wheelchair is going to be damaged because it's done on the cargo hold with all of the luggage and it has been damaged a few times where it was so bad that I couldn't even drive out of the airport independently. And so I'm constantly worried about that. And I think if we could just get air travel to a point where it's easier to fly as a wheelchair user, we would see so many more people with disabilities traveling around the world. It's by far the biggest issue in the travel space, I believe.

Jodi Beckstine (12:54):

A lot of shame.

Keith Casebonne (12:56):

Yeah.

Cory Lee (12:58):

Yeah. Oh, I will say there are, for the first time ever, companies now that are finally talking about making it better. So companies let all wheels up. They are a nonprofit that's dedicated to making a wheelchair spot on planes. So they're trying to fund all of the research and all of that. And then Delta Flight Products recently invented a prototype where a wheelchair user could stay in their wheelchair on a plane. So I'm hopeful for the first time ever that we will finally see accessibility in air travel, but I think we're at a minimum like five to 10 years away from that. But at least now we do have a little bit of hope though.

Jodi Beckstine (13:43):

Yeah. I think I remember seeing one of your videos where they showed a seat that folds up so that you could just back right into it and then they secure your seat down. That's amazing. And that definitely needed one to protect your wheelchair and your comfort, you're most comfortable in your chair. So to have that on such a long flight would just be amazing.

Cory Lee (14:03):

Oh yeah, absolutely. On every mode of transportation, otherwise, whether it's like the Amtrak train or trains in Europe or buses, I can stay in my wheelchair. So airplanes are kind of the last mode of transportation that just are not accessible at all. So hopefully one day we'll see that change. That'd be great.

Keith Casebonne (14:25):

It'd be game changing when it does.

Jodi Beckstine (14:26):

Great.

Keith Casebonne (14:26):

Yeah.

Jodi Beckstine (14:27):

Yes.

Keith Casebonne (14:28):

Well, your site is packed with practical guides, destination reviews and lots of resources. What are the most common questions that you get from readers planning their own accessible adventures?

Cory Lee (14:43):

Always about air travel. It's nonstop every single day about air travel. But aside from that, I get a lot of questions about beaches. And [inaudible 00:14:56] Disability Rights Florida, so maybe that's fitting, but I'm thinking of the beach is often seen as a place that isn't typically accessible. And so people are really curious about how they can go to a beach or if they can even go in the first place and what kind of options are out there from beach access mats to beach wheelchairs and everything.

(15:19):

And so luckily around the US, there are some really, really great beaches now. Some of my favorites are in Florida. I love Panama City Beach, Florida for that. They have the access mats and beach wheelchairs available on a first come first serve basis for free. Clearwater is another one of my favorites. Miami has actually powered beach wheelchairs that you can use on the beaches and they're completely free to use on a first come first serve faces, which is incredible. And it just really allows me to go to the beach and let be completely independent like the other beach goers. So I really love Miami for that reason.

Keith Casebonne (16:01):

Yeah, that's amazing.

Jodi Beckstine (16:03):

I live on the West Coast and there's, I think they're called Moby Mats. We come over the dune and then there's a mat that comes out and there's a big space. And I can take my scooter out there and watch the sunset. Whereas before they put that in, it was just, I kind of stood at the dunes a little bit right off the parking lot. Now I can actually be out there with my family and everyone else and it makes it so much more fun and enjoyable.

Cory Lee (16:30):

Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Keith Casebonne (16:31):

Yeah, for sure.

Jodi Beckstine (16:33):

So it's clear you're a trusted voice for travelers with disabilities, but beyond logistics, travel can change how people see the world and see themselves. How has your experience as a wheelchair user traveling shaped your view of what access means not only when you're traveling, but doing your work at home?

Cory Lee (16:57):

I think the biggest thing that travel has given me I think is empathy and just realizing that when I travel to places like Thailand or India or Morocco, meeting other wheelchair users and just learning about what their lives are like in these countries where accessibility definitely is not a priority as much as it is here in the US. So in the US, we're very lucky to have the ADA, thanks to many disability champions that came before me and fought for that.

(17:31):

And when I go to these other places, it's just very clear how little accessibility means in a lot of places. And so honestly, it's given me a lot of empathy, but it's also made me really thankful to live in a place where some level of accessibility does exist. I think of course it could be a lot better. The US is by now perfect when it comes to accessibility, but I am thankful that we at least do have laws in place. And I really wish that every country around the world could have some kind of regulations in place for accessibility.

(18:11):

Definitely. I agree.

Keith Casebonne (18:13):

Yeah, for sure. Well, for tourism professionals maybe listening to this, what's one thing that you wish hotels, airlines, attractions, anything related to travel, that those folks understood about providing access that's meaningful, not just checking a box that says, yep, we're accessible, but meaningful access, what would you want them to know?

Cory Lee (18:41):

I think especially when it comes to hotels, I frequently, whenever I'm booking a hotel or talking to representatives from hotels, they'll say, "Oh yeah, we're ADA compliant. We have an accessible room," but they don't understand that accessibility means something different to every person with a disability. So a wheelchair user friend of mine needs a bed that's like 20 inches tall. But for me, I need a bed to be 25 inches tall or higher. So it's drastically different from one person with a disability to the next. And I feel like hotels especially just stick to the basic ADA guidelines and want to be ADA compliant. And whenever I hear the word ADA compliant, I honestly hesitate for a minute because it makes me think, well, you did the bare minimum then. You did go above and beyond. You were just simply being compliant to abide by the laws.

(19:41):

And so I really want places to start hotels to start including photos and videos of that accessible room because when I go to Hilton.com and try to book an accessible room, the photo that's featured for that room is like 99% of the time, not even a photo of that room. It's just a stock photo they pulled from some website. And so I would love just more photos, more videos, more detailed information about accessible hotel rooms, whether it's bed height, the doorway width, the type of shower, if there's a lip to get in the shower or not. Those very specific details could really, really help and give people the confidence to actually book the stay.

Keith Casebonne (20:31):

Yeah. You mentioned the shower. When you were talking about the hotels and the pictures, I was thinking sort of the same thing. The only time I ever feel like I see a picture that might be specific to an accessible room is that they show that it's a walk-in or roll-in shower. Other than that, great, that's important. But right, there's so many other aspects of the room that they don't even think, but the shower seems to get the focus, which is a big one, I mean admittedly, but it's still like there's so many other things and yeah, I think it's a really great point.

Cory Lee (21:03):

Yeah. We just need way more detailed information. It would be so, so helpful.

Keith Casebonne (21:08):

Yeah.

Jodi Beckstine (21:09):

Well, I believe it was your mother had a post about walk-in showers at a hotel that have a lip. So they were talking about, yes, it's a walk-in shower, you just roll in shower, but it has this lip and she's always so concerned because depending on the height of that can cause an issue just rolling in and having a picture so you can determine and kind of be prepared ahead of time would make a world of difference in that.

Cory Lee (21:34):

Yeah. The shower chair that I use, I always travel with it and it has a really, really difficult time getting over any kind of lip over half an inch tall. And so sometimes it is really sketchy trying to get in the shower and I'm kind of holding on for dear life.

Keith Casebonne (21:51):

Yeah. And they can build them without that lip. They don't even need the lip.

Jodi Beckstine (21:54):

Yeah.

Cory Lee (21:56):

Right. Yeah.

Jodi Beckstine (21:57):

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, as we come to a close of our conversation, we like to end each episode with what we call a deep cut and we talk about disability in media spaces. And I saw one of your recent videos when you traveled to Florida, and I know you're a Swiftie like me, but is there a book or a film, music, artist, something that resonates with you lately or that's shaped your journey that you'd like to share with our listeners?

Cory Lee (22:25):

I am currently addicted to the Life of a Showgirl by [inaudible 00:22:31]. But aside from Taylor related things, I recently watched a movie called Facing the Falls and it's available on Delta Flights. It's by Cara Yar Khan. She is a disability advocate and it's about her journey into the Grand Canyon. She went drafting in the Grand Canyon. She went horseback through the Grand Canyon. It's a remarkable movie. It's only like 30 minutes long, so it's fairly short, but it just left me feeling really inspired and I need to keep pushing myself out of my comfort zone to have these incredible experiences. So I've always tried to do that, but that movie really made me want to push myself even better. So I would definitely recommend Facing the Falls.

Keith Casebonne (23:18):

Oh, wow.

Jodi Beckstine (23:18):

Wonderful. Thank you for that.

Keith Casebonne (23:19):

Yeah. Oh, I want to see that.

Jodi Beckstine (23:19):

Fantastic.

Keith Casebonne (23:21):

Yeah, that sounds great. Awesome. All right. Well, Cory, this has been a really great conversation. I think listeners are going to get a lot out of this and I'm so happy that you were able to share your experiences with us and spend some time with us. Thank you so much for being on our podcast.

Cory Lee (23:37):

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I had load of fun. I appreciate it.

Jodi Beckstine (23:40):

Thank you. It was a pleasure meeting you.

Cory Lee (23:41):

Yeah, you too. Thanks.

Jodi Beckstine (23:45):

Don't come up for air just yet. Our deep cut is next. Before we dive in, we want to share a bit of context for this discussion. We watched roughly the first five episodes of Extraordinary Attorney Woo, so our conversation reflects early impressions rather than the full arc of the show. We'll also be talking about the use of the term Asperger's, which has a complicated history and is no longer widely used in many communities.

(24:11):

One important note is that Keith watched the series in Korean with English subtitles, where that term was not explicitly used. While I watched the English dubbed version with English captions where it was. We wanted to name that difference upfront because translation and localization choices can shape how audiences understand disability and language, and we want listeners to be aware of that as they engage in this conversation.

Keith Casebonne (24:36):

So let's start with the uncomfortable truth. Extraordinary Attorney Woo is deeply satisfying television. It is warm, it's charming, it's reassuring. Even in the first few episodes we watched, you can feel why people fell in love with it. What do you think the show is giving audiences emotionally?

Jodi Beckstine (24:56):

Well, it came out in 2022. We're now in 2026. I think it kind of gives an emotional relief. And we're living in a moment where the world feels unkind and unpredictable and sometimes hostile. And if you exist in a space that's outside of what's considered normal, that's pretty rough. And I think the show kind of offers a version of reality where decency shows up more often than it doesn't. And she's misunderstood constantly in every interaction that she has. And the story kind of shows that people are going to come around and people are going to become understanding. And it's powerful for a character that's lived in their reality of being dismissed and underestimated. And that could be really reassuring to people. I think that the key tension is that the show feels emotionally honest even when it's not necessarily being socially realistic.

Keith Casebonne (26:16):

Yeah. Well, and it just reminds me of sort of classic episodic TV where everything's resolved in a nice bow in 60 minutes or whatever. And I think like so many TV shows throughout history, it's not real life. It is a bit of a fantasy that everything gets wrapped up, everyone understands by the end and everyone feels good and we move on to the next episode and like nothing ever happens. And it's a little more of a modern series where there's a storyline that kind of travels through, at least again, the first few episodes we saw.

(26:58):

So it's a little more modern than like the classic '70s, '80s series where the next episode, someone could have been through a horrible trauma in the previous one and everyone's just eating ice cream and dancing like nothing ever happened in the next ... But it should be like a few days later in their lives. So it's not quite that, but it's still, it's fantasy TV. But yeah, for all the good and bad that I could probably point out in the show, yeah, it makes you smile and it might even make you a tear sometimes. And it's just fun. It's fun TV for what it is, its own little thing.

Jodi Beckstine (27:40):

It gives you a deeper appreciation for whales too. I never learned so much-

Keith Casebonne (27:45):

Yes, so much about whales.

Jodi Beckstine (27:45):

... so much about whales.

Keith Casebonne (27:47):

Yes, yes.

Jodi Beckstine (27:49):

Well, I think it's important to name that the show doesn't just tell a story about autism. It tells about, in my opinion, that how people wish people would respond to disability. So for me, the question is, who is this fantasy serving disabled viewers or the average Joe?

Keith Casebonne (28:12):

That's a great question. You're right. It's unrealistic and kind of amazing how quickly misunderstandings or the complications of the show kind of get resolved. And yeah, people with disabilities, we all wish that someone just understood right away and, "Oh, I get it. So sorry. Move on." And move on with their lives and not harp or gloat or baby or whatever people. So is the fantasy for people with disabilities, disabled viewers seeking hope? Is it to educate the non-disabled viewers? Is it to reassure them that everything's okay? I don't know. I don't know what the answer is to the question because I think there's a number of ways to look at it and I'm not sure which one it is. I don't know what the showrunners were trying to convey, honestly. It's hard to tell sometimes.

Jodi Beckstine (29:32):

I think it's based on your lived experience, what you're going to get out of it. I know what I get out of it, but it will vary as the next viewer, what they're getting out of it. I'm speaking for them in a generalized term. I think it's supposed to be a feel good show. I think that's what their goal was. Yes, we're going to educate you a little bit on this, but the goal is to feel good. And you can tell that with the credits and the way that the whale things happen and stuff. That's the goal of it to me, I think, over all encompassing idea for it.

Keith Casebonne (30:18):

Yeah, I agree. And there's points about it that will, I think what helps really shape my answer we'll kind of get into. In fact, I think coming up in the next question here, we'll talk more about it. But yeah, I agree. I guess you get out of what you get out of it and it's made different viewers are going to get different things out of it. Yeah. Well, so the main character, Wu Young Wu, she's not just competent. She's extraordinary. It's in the name, right? She's extraordinary. Top of her class, photographic memory, legal brilliance. So do you think the show is saying this success is because of her autism or in spite of it?

Jodi Beckstine (31:09):

Well, I think they used her servant aspect of her autism to quickly get the audience to buy into this character and just kind of ready to ride the wave. But I think it turns her brilliance into the reason why she's accepted, if that makes sense. It frames this idea that you have to earn access and respect that the system that she's working within makes accessibility to her based on her being impressive. And what that can do is autism is a spectrum and there are average people with autism and people who are struggling that have autism. And they still deserve the same dignity and access that she's giving, even though their stories can't be wrapped up in this cute little package. But again, that's how you're able to tell this story and to sell this story is by the exceptionalness, the extraordinaryness of her particular autism, her particular niche that she's in.

(32:39):

So I think it's only that way because of her autism and because of where that puts her. Because I think if some smart woman just walked in who was top of her class, what's the story there?

Keith Casebonne (32:56):

Right. You need a dramatic arc. You need something to make it unique compared to other people's stories.

Jodi Beckstine (33:02):

Yeah.

Keith Casebonne (33:03):

Okay, sure. Sure. What bothers me is it reminds me, it feels like the movie Rain Man in some respects. And for you millennials and Gen Xers out there, Rain Man's a movie from the 80s, I think it's the 80s, and it's about an individual with ... I don't know if they ever define it as autism in the movie.

Jodi Beckstine (33:30):

I don't think they do.

Keith Casebonne (33:31):

But he's an individual who's got a neurodivergent disability of some kind, but he can't work a job. He needs to be cared for, but he's got these sort of savant abilities. And the whole point is that you're supposed to see how special he is despite his disability. But the problem is, there's a number of problems with the rain man. But one of the big problems was that I saw that movie when I was young and really, I don't think I'd ever heard ... I don't know if I'd ever heard the term autism at that point, but it defined to me erroneously what autism or a neurodivergent disability is supposed to look like. And that's not the case. I mean, it's one possibility. It's not that there aren't people out there that might resemble that character, but it's far from the norm.

Jodi Beckstine (34:30):

Yeah.

Keith Casebonne (34:32):

Yeah. And so here we go with now a more modern show, maybe showing the same thing, whether they meant to or not, showing the same thing to a new group of viewers that ... It's one of two messages. Either this is what autism is that, oh, don't worry, they've got these great other special abilities and it negates the disability aspects of it or whatever. Or these are the people with autism to be valued and that others who don't have these extraordinary skills and whatnot, well, they're not as worthy or for whatever reason.

(35:17):

So I just see there's that possibility of harm coming from that portrayal that younger viewers who we all have Netflix, everyone's streaming and shows available to people more so than movies and shows were back when we were younger. I don't know. It seems like for 2022 and now 2026, I don't know. I'm not sure that that's exactly how the portrayal should be.

Jodi Beckstine (35:49):

Yeah. And just to piggyback off that, we have this pedestal problem where would this story work if she was just competent or even struggling, I don't think it would. I think that they had to take it and magnify it into this something larger than life to make the story work. She wouldn't have had the access otherwise.

Keith Casebonne (36:16):

No, I agree. I agree totally. The story wouldn't work as well. I agree 100%. They're showing this aspect of disability, but others are left invisible. What they're framing "autism" to look like is a narrow field. And it's not something that's really ever, that I know, at least again, in the few episodes we've seen, so put an asterisk on that, but the idea of autism being such a broad spectrum, I don't recall in the episodes I saw that that ever really is mentioned. And I'm not expecting a TV drama to necessarily have a huge component of education to it. I get that it's not supposed to be an educational show. It's not a documentary. It's not learning content, but somehow it would be nice to sort of make it clear that they're not trying to say this is what's typical or this is what's expected, that kind of thing. And that can be a problem.

Jodi Beckstine (37:31):

Yeah. I think the showrunners have a responsibility to do that, to show this is her lived experience. There are other lived experiences, and there's a way to sprinkle that into the story as it goes along. And they very well may do that later in the season and maybe even in season two. But I think it's a responsibility of the showrunners to try to show that full gamut of what they're talking about and not be so close because a lot of people do get their first insights to things through media like this. They may not know someone who has autism, and so this is going to be how they are introduced to it. So I don't know. Some people take that responsibility seriously, some don't, but ...

Keith Casebonne (38:22):

No, it's true. Well, let's talk a little bit about language. So the show, as we mentioned, in some viewing, if you listen in the English dub or some of the English captions, refers to the term Asperger's. For some viewers that may feel familiar, it may feel validating. For others, it's quite uncomfortable. So why does that tension matter?

Jodi Beckstine (38:49):

Well, you talked about it feeling familiar. I think to some people in the early 2000s, mid 2000s, that was a diagnosis, and you almost didn't hear Asperger's being part of autism. It was Asperger's and autism. They were very separate, and it separated people into acceptable and not acceptable. And we've talked about this before. There's language changes over time, diagnostic terms change and evolve. We talked about with the term using the M word for describing people with dwarfism. It's the same thing.

(39:31):

What's acceptable in 1950 is not necessarily going to be acceptable in 2026, and we have to grow with that. And that use of outdated terms, especially in media, locks them in place to the time that the show is. So by using that term for a show in 2022, it's kind of stating 10 years from now, 20 years from now, that term was acceptable in 2022, even though we know better. So I think that's kind of where the tension of it being used could be a problem for some people because it is kind of dating that is still being acceptable at that time period. And now we're watching it so many years later and still hearing it.

Keith Casebonne (40:21):

Yeah. I would be curious to know, as we mentioned, it comes up in the English dubbed audio, but when you watch with the Korean audio, the captions that are used with that don't use the word Asperger's. They say autism or autistic, depending on the context. I would be very curious, I didn't think about this in advance. I could have probably researched this, but I'm curious to know what the actual language ... Because the show, obviously it's a South Korean show, it's created and written by people who speak Korean. I shockingly do not speak Korean.

(41:02):

And so I don't know what the terminology norms are in Korea for autism. I don't know if they refer to it in the same way that we do as a spectrum by ASD. I don't know. I mean, maybe they have a different terminology. I wonder if there's terminology that maybe does not mean the word Asperger's, but for some reason, the people who did the dub decided that that was the most matching word. You know what I mean?

Jodi Beckstine (41:41):

Yeah. Yeah.

Keith Casebonne (41:43):

Is it on the showrunners? Is it on the writers? Or is it really something that is a language, I don't want to say mix up, but something just caused by language differences and someone who's writing the script for the folks to do the language dub in decided, oh, this is really just the closest word to what they're saying. I don't know, because what's weird about that theory is that Asperger's, I mean, it's a person. It's named after a person described-

Jodi Beckstine (42:16):

On the spectrum.

Keith Casebonne (42:17):

Yeah. Thank you. What that is. And so I don't think I ever heard them saying that name as I was listening. I guess I wasn't really listening for it. I don't know. I would just be curious to know where the fault lies, if I'm being honest.

Jodi Beckstine (42:31):

Yeah. Because it's a global show and language doesn't land the same everywhere, we have to think about the responsibility of who is responsible for the series. And again, the exposure that people are having for the first time to autism You have to be cognizant of those things or you would like them to be ... You don't have to. Some people aren't. I would like them to be cognizant of those things to think about when you're writing a show. If someone who had no idea at all about what you're talking about, how are they going to view this? How are they going to take this in? And I'd like to see more showrunners and directors and writers think about that. It gets so close to you because perhaps you have autism or perhaps you know someone with autism. So you're writing this thing and you're not thinking about the people that are outside of that bubble.

(43:34):

And I read that they did not bring in anyone who had autism, the lived experience or that they were just writing it based on their own knowledge, which I think is a big gap.

Keith Casebonne (43:50):

I agree. Yeah, that's a problem. And I know that the actress, and forgive me, I don't remember her name, but the actress that plays Young Woo did some research herself. She does not have autism, and that's its own issue right there that we could discuss. But she sort of created a character based on, I guess, the different people that she spoke to about autism or maybe with autism, I don't know, but it's her interpretation. And I think that needs to be remembered. It's not necessarily any one person's actual realistic view of what autism could be. Not that it couldn't be, it's just that it's acting.

(44:48):

And the problem is that sometimes this is where people get their education from. Even though it's fiction TV, they learn about ... Again, I learned about, erroneously, autism from Rain Man. I mean, that's the risk, that's the fear. And people have very inaccurate views of disability when this kind of thing keeps happening.

Jodi Beckstine (45:14):

And there's not a lot of further research by people. They see a show, they read a book, and that's what they get it from. There's no, "Well, let me look into that a little bit more. Let me dig a little deeper." We've kind of lost that because we're so used to ingesting as much media as we can. It doesn't carry on past just watching the show, which is a shame, but ...

Keith Casebonne (45:40):

It is. It is. Well, there's no doubt that the show has increased awareness, but as we're saying here, awareness can be shallow and misleading. So where do you see that line showing up in the early episodes?

Jodi Beckstine (45:54):

Well, I think a big part of what they're missing is we're seeing a lot of external, of her being out in the public, at work, whatever. And she's getting this eventual patience and acceptance from the people around her, but we're not into her internal self very much, like the realities of what it is to mask or to have burnout or be overwhelmed and the long-term emotional cost of her having to say, "We're not talking about whales. We're not talking about this. We're not supposed to have echolalia," all those things that wears on a person over time having to remember those things.

(46:46):

And again, I think them not having people from the autistic community involved in shaping the story that the awareness and the knowledge of autism, we're getting this polished representation of what it can be as opposed to an honest truth. And it could be a choice because they're trying to keep things light and happy, but that bothered me a little bit that we didn't get so much internal [inaudible 00:47:24]-

Keith Casebonne (47:23):

Yeah. That creative choice comes with consequences.

Jodi Beckstine (47:28):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to push this just a little bit further and ask about people, we were talking about people this being their first, potentially being their first introduction to people with autism, but if this messaging doesn't cause them to see autism in a different light or how they view people with autism in their lives, has it shifted the conversation? Has it opened doors? Has it enlightened people? And we have this para-social empathy for characters on TV, but it doesn't always then go out into real life. And I don't-

Keith Casebonne (48:18):

No, it doesn't.

Jodi Beckstine (48:18):

I don't think this is helping that. I don't think this show helps that scenario.

Keith Casebonne (48:24):

I agree 100%. I don't think it does either. I think if the show borders on the whole inspiration trope thing at times, and there's not really any true accountability or depth when it comes to portraying the character of Young Wu and her disability, it becomes very superficial at times. I mean, sometimes I see the character as being very childlike in a way, which is again, okay, again, it's an actor's portrayal. It's a decision that was made by an actor and the crew.

(49:12):

And I just kind of keep thinking about that at times. And I'm like, so is it typical? Is it not typical? As people who work in this area, we are more aware of what's typical and what's not typical, but I don't know that I want everyone who views the show thinking that individuals with autism also as adults act like children at times. That's not always the case. That's not accurate. So you can like the character, you can think, oh, how great and how wonderful and I get it. It makes sense. But there's a difference in that with actually understanding and respecting a full community of individuals with autism or just the broader sense of disability in general.

Jodi Beckstine (50:05):

I agree. Again, we didn't watch from very many episodes, but they were hinting at this love interest coming in and him being such a, what they call like a green flag, being just this golden retriever of a guy, that kind of bothered me too, because they played it off that people with autism from everyone else gets such patience and understanding, and that is not the case. I mean, you don't even get that in real life in general. So that was a problem for me too, a little bit with it just being too fantasy, too fantasy for me, I guess is the word.

Keith Casebonne (50:57):

Yep, I agree. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Well, because the show is so successful, I mean, as we've mentioned, it risks becoming the reference point for people when it comes to how they view autism, and especially for viewers with very little prior experience. So I mean, we've talked about it, but what are some more dangers of one story carrying that much weight?

Jodi Beckstine (51:20):

Well, one thing I like about some of the changes that has been made over time on how we discuss autism is the use of the word spectrum, because it is such a spectrum, and I think that helps people kind of grasp that concept that what works for one person or what is one person's experience is not necessarily the other persons. And I think by doing it the way they've done it, you're not seeing who else is missing on that spectrum that they're not discussing. We see this end in this little part, but there's this whole other gamut of experience that they're not touching on.

(52:06):

And so it just flattens the idea of what autism is for people. And I think it also puts an unfair pressure on this one character to carry that load of autism. I just think, again, that they should have really tried to sprinkle other aspects of the spectrum of the lived experience into it. And again, they may do that later down the road, and I haven't gotten there yet, but I don't foresee it happening.

Keith Casebonne (52:49):

No, I don't either. I don't either. I want to compare it to something we talked about in a previous episode. So in The Pit, there's a character, Dr. King, who it's never defined as having autism, but it's clear enough that she has some neurodivergent disability. And again, she's a smart, professional person, but to me, that's the only similarity. Those two characters couldn't be defined more differently, if you ask me.

(53:24):

I think one aspect that makes it a little bit easier to talk about the version in The Pit is that she's not the main character. She's not carrying the show. Young Woo is carrying the show.

Jodi Beckstine (53:38):

Yeah.

Keith Casebonne (53:39):

She is the main character and everything, storylines are all focused to some degree on how her disability influences the way a trial happens or whatever, the way she comes up with evidence or legal research or so on. It hinges on who she is as a person. Whereas in The Pit, it's a somewhat main character, but it's not the main character. It's talked about in a much different, more limited way, but I think that's better because it puts it in a more realistic framework in our world. And it's two different things and great.

(54:25):

So there's two different ways of looking at it. If I'm a viewer of both The Pit and Extraordinary Attorney Woo, oh, I'm seeing these different ... Oh, I get it now, a little bit more maybe. Again, it's two characters, and just millions of people in the world, but okay, two versus one at least is a little better. At least I can see that there's some differences and it may make me go, "Oh, I wonder what other differences there are versus just one person." But there's no guarantee everyone's seeing that. Some people's only experience might be the pit, others might just be extraordinary attorney woo, and that's how it is.

(54:56):

But I don't know. I think there's right ways to do it and wrong ways to do it. And while the show, again, it's got a lot of feel good moments and it is a fun show to watch. I mean, again, the truth is that it's enjoyable in a lot of respects just as a TV show, but there's risks involved with watching it too.

Jodi Beckstine (55:22):

I guess anything with extraordinary in the title of the show, you need to expect a little bit of a fantasy and a little bit of a push to be outside the norm. So it makes sense.

Keith Casebonne (55:34):

Well, Extraordinary Attorney Woo does give us something rare, a disabled protagonist who is centered, respected, and allowed joy. But it also asks us to think critically about what kind of stories get told and which ones still remain out of frame.

Jodi Beckstine (55:48):

Thanks for taking time with us in this deep cut. These conversations matter because representation shapes reality, whether you notice it or not. That's a wrap on today's episode. We're so grateful to Cory Lee for sharing his experiences, insight, and the reminder that access isn't about limits, it's about possibility.

Keith Casebonne (56:07):

Yes, indeed. Cory's work continues to challenge how people with disabilities see the world and how the world shows up for them. We'll have links to Curb Free with Cory Lee and his travel resources in the show notes.

Jodi Beckstine (56:18):

And if this episode sparked something in you, maybe it's curiosity, maybe it's a new destination, maybe it's a push to ask better questions about access, hold on to that.

Keith Casebonne (56:27):

Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Disability Deep Dive.

Jodi Beckstine (56:31):

Disability Deep Dive is a podcast that is brought to you by Disability Rights Florida, where real conversations about life, culture, and ideas meet the lived disability experience. Follow us on YouTube, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us at disabilityrightsflorida.org/podcast.