Disability Deep Dive Podcast

Episode Transcript

Jodi Beckstine (00:18):

This is a take to build the kind of community, mentorship, and leadership space disabled girls, women, and feminine people have too often had to create for themselves. Today we're talking with Stephanie Woodward about mentorship, leadership, and transformational learning experiences.

Keith Casebonnne (00:36):

Welcome to Disability Deep Dive. I'm Keith.

Jodi Beckstine (00:38):

And I'm Jodi.

Keith Casebonnne (00:39):

Today we're talking to Stephanie Woodward. Through Disability EmpowHer Network, Stephanie is helping create exactly that kind of space rooted in connection, leadership, and the belief that disabled girls, and women deserve to be supported, seen, and empowered on their own terms.

Jodi Beckstine (00:55):

Let's dive in with Stephanie Woodward.

Keith Casebonnne (00:59):

Before we jump in, I'm Keith. I'm a white man with brown eyes, brown hair, a graying beard, and I'm wearing a blue shirt.

Jodi Beckstine (01:06):

I'm Jody, a white woman with dark blonde hair that's in a braid, and I'm wearing a floral shirt, and glasses.

Keith Casebonnne (01:12):

Stephanie, if you're comfortable, we'd love to invite you to visually describe yourself to our listeners as well.

Stephanie Woodward (01:17):

Absolutely. I am a pale woman with ginger-ish hair, very curly wearing a gray sweater with pink donuts.

Keith Casebonnne (01:25):

Nice.

Jodi Beckstine (01:26):

Cute. So, to start us off, could you introduce yourself to our listeners, and maybe share a little bit about who you are, the work you do, and what's been central to your work this season of your life?

Stephanie Woodward (01:38):

Oh, goodness. I am Stephanie Woodward. I am the founder, and no CEO now of Disability EmpowHer Network. Same job, different title. We're an organization run by, and for girls, and women with disabilities to help disabled girls, and women gain the skills, and confidence that they need to become leaders. I am also a consultant. I work with private businesses on how to become more inclusive, and accessible, and welcoming to the disability community. And when I'm not doing all of that, I have six kids, including my one-year-old triplets. So, I spend a lot of time hanging out with them, and my husband, and I try to educate the public about the misconceptions, and stereotypes of parenting with a disability through our social media channels.

Keith Casebonnne (02:25):

Very good. Excellent. Thank you. And I know there's so many dimensions to your work, but it feels important that we maybe start real quick with protest as one part of the larger disability rights landscape because public action can make issues visible in a way that few other things can. So, before we move into the Disability EmpowHer Network more fully, let's stay for a moment with what protests can show us about the stakes of this work. So, public protest has been one visible part of disability rights advocacy in recent years. From your perspective, what can these moments reveal about power, urgency, and what is at stake for disabled people when systems fail them?

Stephanie Woodward (03:09):

This is such a loaded question, so I'm going to start-

Keith Casebonnne (03:12):

This is a lot.

Stephanie Woodward (03:13):

The imagery behind me is not at all coincidental. So, we have the Disability EmpowHer Network logo because that is dear to my heart. That is what we founded. We have my law degree because I believe in disability rights law, and I went to law school to help enhance, enforce, and further disability rights. But here, these two pieces of art are the most central to my history, and my commitment to disability rights. Down, we have a black, and white photo of the signing of the Americans with Disabilities Act. You probably can't see it, but I can, and that's important to me. Right above it is my very favorite protest sign of all time. This is a picture taken by Tom Olin, who is what I can only say is the most prolific photographer of the disability rights movement. And he took this picture. It's a back of a wheelchair user in the 80s, and it says, "Asking did not work." And I think that that is central to disability rights, and to protest because so many people say like, "Well, why didn't you just ask nicely?"

(04:16):

Girlfriend, you think nobody tried? Really? We are here. We protest because asking did not work. Protest is not our first resort. Protest is also not our last resort. It is a part of an advocacy cycle. I can be protesting outside of my senator's office today, and then tomorrow be in there in a meeting with another compelling argument to discuss what... Do you want us back out here tomorrow? Are you ready to start negotiating, and working with us? So, I think that protest is often seen as a negative, and I think that it is an incredibly important tool, and it is important for those who question the power of protest to recognize that nothing is ever handed over freely. We have to fight for what we have, and we will continue to fight because we do not have anything close to an equitable situation for people with disabilities. [inaudible 00:05:18]

Jodi Beckstine (05:17):

I appreciate you making that distinction. And this feels like a right place to turn towards the Disability EmpowHer, which is really the heart of our conversation that we're having today because beyond these public moments, so much of your work is centered on this network. What led you to build this organization, and what gap were you trying to fill for girls, and women, and feminine people with disabilities?

Stephanie Woodward (05:46):

Well, first, thanks for asking. So, I will say for a very long time growing up, I did not have any disabled women role models. I remember the exact first time I saw another disabled woman who I could relate to. I was at a carnival, and I saw a woman in a wheelchair not doing anything like prolific. She was straight up just doing the pull tabs, gambling. And my first thought was she's at a carnival without her mom? I have potential to someday be at a carnival without my mom. That was the threshold I was striving for, being in a carnival without my mom. I deserve better role models than that. I'm sure she was great, but I deserve to see more representation that I can relate to, and aspire to be like than someone at a carnival gambling, okay? But I didn't have that. And so then as I continued to grow, I remember being the only openly disabled, visibly disabled woman in courtrooms, in meetings, and being in situations that I couldn't talk to anyone else about. So, a judge would shake my opposing counsel's hand, and then pat me on the head.

Jodi Beckstine (06:58):

No.

Keith Casebonnne (06:58):

Oh. Oh. Oh.

Stephanie Woodward (06:58):

Because I'm a wheelchair user, and like, what do you do with that? Because I'm sitting here saying like, if I speak up, will that impact how this judge rules on my client's case, on future cases? What do you do? I didn't have anyone I could go to who, because if I go to an able-bodied man, he's going to say, "Well, you should talk to him about it." Great, you're in a very different position than I am in. So, from all of those experiences, I knew that there needed to be a space for disabled women could come together, and also like girls with disabilities. So, I actually started with looking for data, and stats about disabled women in leadership. Now there are studies about women leadership, some studies about marginalized women in leadership. I could find nothing, nothing about disabled women in leadership. But what I could find were stats showing that girls with disabilities don't graduate high school at the same rate.

(07:48):

We don't go to higher education at the same rate. We're not employed at the same rates. When we are employed, we're underemployed, and underpaid. And all of this to me showed that there is clearly a need to support disabled girls, and women, and feminine aligned people in ways that are unique to the barriers that we're experiencing, and Disability EmpowHer Network was born.

Jodi Beckstine (08:08):

I love that.

Keith Casebonnne (08:09):

Yeah, I do too. And I also love how clearly this comes from your lived experience. It's not like a bunch of theory, or research. It's your life, and you can hear how personal this mission is, and makes the idea of mentoring feel really meaningful. So, mentorship is such a big part of your story, and your mission. What did it mean for you to finally have disabled women role models in your own life, and how does that experience shape the way you think about what younger people need now?

Stephanie Woodward (08:42):

I think that it shaped me in ways that I still to this day can't fully comprehend, or verbalize being able to see women, not only like with my disabilities, any disabilities in a boardroom, not helping make decisions, being the decision maker showed me that I could be in that position of power. I remember talking to one of my mentors saying like, "My male boss says that when I hug people, I'm using my sexuality to try to advance my advocacy." But if he hugs people, he's just being friendly. And she was like, I will never forget that she said, "Lions do not care about the opinions of sheep." And I had never heard that before, but to hear a woman say that my boss is a sheep, and I in this position will someday see him in the same way that she does. That was important for me to see that just because their structural scales of power does not mean that that's the way they stay, and does not give a person integrity.

(09:53):

And to hear just a disabled woman push against the norms, push against what others were saying to me, and seeing the power in me, and helping me see it myself has been just pivotal to like me feeling confident enough to even talk to you, right? Like I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for those women really showing me. And so when I think about mentorship, I think like, I feel like I've come pretty far in life. How much further could I be if I had those mentors when I was eight, and not when I was 19?

Jodi Beckstine (10:26):

Yeah. I have dwarfism, and I grew up really thinking that my only direction in life was going to be in the entertainment industry because that's the only place I really saw people with dwarfism. I think about how different my life could be had I had that type of mentorship as a young person. So, when you talk about role models, you naturally get into the bigger question of what people are up against. Disability EmpowHer Networks is not just about encouragement, it's also about community, skill building, leadership. What are some of the barriers that you see that they still face when it comes to confidence, opportunity, and just being seen as leaders in general?

Stephanie Woodward (11:13):

Oh, well, I mean ableism abounds everywhere, right? And so the internalized ableism is strong, and I will say that when we started our programs, we started a lot of our programs to be youth centered. The idea of getting them their mentors young so that they can grow up to be competent leaders. And what I found so quickly was the amount of disabled women reaching out, and saying, "Where were you when I was little?" And I was like, "I was little too." Sorry, you've been waiting on me. I also was waiting on this, and that's why it's here now. So, we expanded our programs because if you think about the fact that we are helping to empower an 11-year old to see her own power, to feel her voice, to know that she can speak up in her IEP meetings, and things like that, but there's a 35-year-old woman who does not have that same empowerment, that's a disservice.

(12:06):

So, why wouldn't we provide that to everyone? So, the barriers have been the same barriers for generations. It's about recognizing that we can't just address it with one generation. Every generation of disabled women deserves to be empowered. And so I think another barrier is the idea that leadership has to look the same way for everybody. So, we very much tell everyone like, "I'm not telling you what your goal should be, and I'm not telling you what a leader should be. You tell me where you feel like you're not leading in your own life." And like some things might seem small to you, but like a big one is people just want to be able to tell their doctor no. And it can be really scary to be in a medical environment, and have someone with knowledge, and background telling you you need to do something, and you have been told your whole life your voice doesn't matter, and you want to say, "No, I'm not taking that medication, or no, I'm not having that procedure." That is a form of leadership.

(13:04):

That is very important form of leadership. So, we talk a lot about that. And I guess another barrier that we have is the idea that our issue is siloed. So, like we will apply for grant funding for women's organizations, and they're like, "Oh, that's nice, but we do women's issues." And I'm like, I don't know if you heard, but disabled women? Still women." What a concept!

Keith Casebonnne (13:30):

Wow. Wow.

Stephanie Woodward (13:32):

So, those are just some of the barriers that we push through every day.

Keith Casebonnne (13:38):

Wow. And some of these barriers are just... I mean, that last one just seems so ridiculous to me. I mean, some of these barriers are absurd sometimes that you have to deal with. Wow. So, I mean, there's such a clear connection between these barriers, and the kind of leadership that your work is trying to build. You bring a perspective of an attorney, an organizer, and a movement builder to this work. What do you think today's advocates can learn from creating spaces that do more than respond to crisis, and instead invest in long-term connection, growth, and leadership?

Stephanie Woodward (14:15):

Oh, big question. I think that we've been so busy burning out trying to fight for where we are, that we don't take the time to be in community with each other, and just rest, and also see the power in community. And I think that that is partially because often when you're a disabled person, you feel isolated, and you feel like every problem out there is your problem to solve on your own. And you might not realize that there are 50 other people also who have disabilities who have also been working on this because when geographically you feel isolated, it can linger into other areas. So, I think what we can first learn is you don't have to do everything on your own. You're not a martyr. And I promise you whatever you think you're the first at you are not. So, take the time to be in community.

(15:11):

You can learn from other people, but your collective power is going to be so much stronger, and as much as you can learn from someone else, another person can learn from you, and that is how we're going to make this the long game, right? Disability rights is not going to be finished. We're not going to have our end goal in five years. This is going to be a centuries long pursuit. So, let's be in community with each other. Let's bring the younger generation off. And also the younger generations have brilliant ideas so we can learn from them just as much as they can learn from us.

Jodi Beckstine (15:49):

Absolutely. I think that gives us a strong sense of what lasting change can look like if we work together. I've only been in the disability advocacy space for a little over a year, and I have learned so much in that year I was so siloed to myself, and the education I've gotten in just this past year, and the sense of community has been amazing. But this feels like a good place to move into our last question. We have a segment that we call our deep cut where Keith, and I talk about media in disability spaces. So, we like to always ask our guests if there's a book, a TV show, film, or even a song that has resonated with you lately, or that you'd like to share with our listeners.

Stephanie Woodward (16:43):

I mean, so many. How could I choose? I will say first of all, Laura Hershey's You Get Proud by Practicing will forever be a mantra that I encourage everyone to read, enjoy, embody if you will. But also one of my most recent obsessions is, are you familiar with A Woman of No Importance? It is a book. It is about Virginia Hall. Do you know Virginia Hall? Because if not, I'm going to go on a tangent for you right now.

Keith Casebonnne (17:15):

Please.

Jodi Beckstine (17:16):

A tangent I want to [inaudible 00:17:17]

Stephanie Woodward (17:20):

Thank you so much. Okay. I knew nothing about Virginia Hall until I got this book on my Libby app. Virginia Hall is one of the first women CIA agents, and then you're already impressed, right? You're like, oh cool. She became one of Hitler's number one enemies in World War II, like had posters of her as wanted. Girlfriend was so disabled in so many ways. Now we focus on the fact that she was an amputee, and she was an amputee not because of her work as a spy. Prior to becoming a spy, she became an amputee, and still killed it in the spy game, and made everyone in Nazi Germany hunt for her. She escaped France from after doing great spy work, and then just was like, "You know what? I'm bored. I'm going to go back in." Even though there was wanted posters up for her everywhere.

(18:08):

And we talk about her amputation, and the fact that she had to literally hike through mountains with a leg, and by the way, prosthetics back then, not exactly lightweight, but also she wasn't taking care of it because when you're undercover, you're not going to a prosthetist all the time. So, all of that combined with the fact that you're in the middle of the war, and with all that she's seen, certainly not documented, but I would bet my life she had some sort of mental health disabilities to go along with it, like PTSD, insomnia, all of that, just based on what we know about the lives of spies, and nobody knows Virginia Hall. Nobody knows her, and everyone should know her because she's incredible. So, if you don't go read this book, I'm going to be upset with you. I expect you to report back, and we'll give you two weeks.

Jodi Beckstine (18:53):

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Keith Casebonnne (18:55):

Wow. Wow.

Jodi Beckstine (18:55):

Wow.

Keith Casebonnne (18:56):

Okay. Okay. I think I'm sensing a book to read next season for the deep cut.

Jodi Beckstine (19:03):

Yeah. I think this is on our list for our next deep cut.

Keith Casebonnne (19:05):

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Jodi Beckstine (19:06):

Wonderful.

Keith Casebonnne (19:08):

That's amazing. Amazing.

Jodi Beckstine (19:09):

Yeah. I surprised there has been a book, or a movie about this.

Stephanie Woodward (19:11):

Girl, I was looking everywhere after I read this book. And it was so good that my husband, when I'm driving in the car, I listen to my books. I don't care that he hasn't heard the first seven chapters. I'm in, I'm in. So, we went on a long drive for like an hour, and a half somewhere. The next day he gets, or two days later he gets in the car, he goes, "You don't have to tell me about anyone else, but where are we with Virginia?" So, he was invested.

Keith Casebonnne (19:35):

Wow. Nice, nice. I just downloaded Libby at myself about a week ago, and I haven't really dove into it yet, but I...

Stephanie Woodward (19:43):

It's a great app.

Keith Casebonnne (19:44):

Happy to hear you just found something really cool that way. So, yeah, cool.

Stephanie Woodward (19:48):

Put it on your list.

Keith Casebonnne (19:48):

Yes, indeed.

Jodi Beckstine (19:50):

Well, Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us, and sharing so much about the heart of your work. I followed you on TikTok, and found you that way, and I love them. So, I really appreciate you being here.

Stephanie Woodward (20:04):

Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Keith Casebonnne (20:06):

Yeah, we appreciate your chance to talk with us about mentorship leadership, and the Disability EmpowHer Network. Thanks so much.

Stephanie Woodward (20:13):

Have a great day.

Jodi Beckstine (20:13):

You too.

Keith Casebonnne (20:16):

You too. Don't come up for air just yet. Our deep cut is next. For today's deep cut, we're talking about CODA, the 2021 film written directed by Sian Heder. The title stands for Child of Deaf Adults, and the story follows Ruby Rossi, a teenager in Glauchester, Massachusetts. Ruby is the only hearing member of her immediate family. Her parents, Frank, and Jackie, and her older brother Leo are deaf. Ruby works with them on the family fishing boat before school helps interpret in many parts of their lives, and is also trying to figure out what she wants for her own future.

Jodi Beckstine (20:52):

And that's where the movie gets interesting because CODA is warm, funny, and emotional, but it also gives us a lot to talk about. It shows a deaf family is loving, messy, funny, sexual, hardworking, and fully human. It also raises questions about how much responsibility gets placed on Ruby. What happens when access is treated like a family problem instead of a community responsibility, and whether the story sometimes centers the hearing character more than the deaf character.

Keith Casebonnne (21:19):

So, today we're talking about what CODA gets right, where it gets more complicated, and why the film works best when it lets every member of the Rossi family want something for themselves. So, the movie opens with Ruby already caring a lot. She's going to school, she's working on the boat, helping her family communicate with hearing people, and trying to survive being a teenager. What stood out to you about the pressure Ruby is under from the beginning?

Jodi Beckstine (21:45):

Oh, she has taken on a lot. Getting up early, and working on a fishing boat that in itself for a teenager is a lot. And then she goes to school, you could see in the beginning there's some type of tension there. You don't really get into it till a little bit later, but there's some type of bullying tension happening, and then she's back home, and she's into interpreting for the family, and her life consists of the boat, school, home, the boat, school, home, essentially. And he ability to translate, and be that access for her family to the community is part of her daily life. And that's a tremendous load to put on a teenager.

Keith Casebonnne (22:44):

Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, she's like a college senior. She's at that age where she really is trying to figure out what she wants to do, who she wants to be, what path she wants to follow. And if you feel trapped in another role that really isn't the one you want, that frustration really shows through in the character. It's clear it's not that she doesn't love her family, but what's going on is just it's too heavy for one young person.

Jodi Beckstine (23:15):

Yeah, you said it. She loves them, but that pressure complicates things because she doesn't come from this cold, uncaring home where it's a really great family from the outside when you're just looking at them. They appear to be like this really great family, but it doesn't erase the fact that she's been asked to do a lot, and she's the youngest member of the family. So, how does the movie show both of those things at the same time, the love, and the complication?

Keith Casebonnne (23:48):

Yeah, that's something they did really well, I think, in the movie. The family has really... They're very warm. There's a lot of funny moments, and there's a lot of loyalty. You can tell that they really bond strongly together, and do feel it's important to work as a team to get things done that they need to get done. And Ruby's role is treated as just sort of normal stuff because the family has had to make things work without having any outside support, and Ruby is there to help bridge the gap between them the deaf community. They communicate using ASL, American Sign Language. And so Ruby is that connection to those other people in the fishing industry that they have to deal with who of course they don't speak ASL. They don't know how else to communicate with them. Ruby is that link, and it's important for them to function, but also you can see the tension from the family trying to be all they can be with their youngest child as unfortunately their interpreter.

Jodi Beckstine (25:03):

Yeah. I think they've kind of in their want to be independent, and want to do things on their own term have kind of isolated themselves. And then on this same token, the community hasn't really reached, doesn't seem like they've really reached out to bridge that gap. So, that's kind of put in that spot where like it, or not, she's that bridge between the two. The mother even talks about the deaf community, and her friends, and Ruby has this thing where she says to her mom, "You only see your friends in the deaf community once a month." So, there's not even really a strong connection there. There's this almost self-isolation that the family's kind of done whether willingly, or just over time.

Keith Casebonnne (25:57):

Yeah. I feel like they sort of fell into a trap of sorts where they've had Ruby there to translate, be that connective person. And so they've just sort of coasted with that. Yeah, it works in the short term, but there's the long-term factor that this can't go on forever, and they need to move past it.

Jodi Beckstine (26:17):

Yeah, definitely.

Keith Casebonnne (26:18):

Yeah. But once we understand Ruby's role, the movie gives us a little more time with Frank, Jackie, and Leo. They're funny, they're blunt, they're affectionate, stubborn, and sometimes completely inappropriate, but yet in a very family way. How did that shape the way you saw them?

Jodi Beckstine (26:40):

They weren't portrayed as being helpless, even though we keep talking about how she's the bridge, and the connection, but they're not helpless. They have personality. I think the parents are very funny. They embarrass... All parents embarrassed teenagers. Maybe a little bit more than the average parent, but I found them to be very likable right away. The brother, I liked the connection that he had with Ruby where they're constantly making fun of each other. They made them real people instead of, "Okay, here's Ruby, this real person, and then her family was deaf", which a lot of movies have a tendency to do that. So, I really liked that everyone was their own person. They had their own arc. They had their own struggles, and were real rounded characters.

Keith Casebonnne (27:43):

Yeah, yeah, for sure. The dynamic is really fun. When the pressure's not on Ruby, and they're just at the dinner table, and talking, you can tell that they have a really great relationship, and they're fun. They're fun to just hang out, and watch, which is, I think, important as it shows that these characters are, they're not just obstacles in Ruby's life, they're her family.

Jodi Beckstine (28:19):

Yeah. Well, Leo, her brother, especially pushes back at the idea that Ruby's the only person who can hold the family together. He sees her talent, but he also sees that her staying will keep everybody stuck in the way they are right now. What do you think Leo understands before the rest of the family?

Keith Casebonnne (28:42):

Yeah, I think Leo's an interesting character because obviously he wants the same things his parents want as far as the independence, and the ability to be productive in the fishing industry. He wants all that stuff, but before the parents do, he recognizes that Ruby needs to have her own future. I don't think he's always happy about it, but I think he understands the reality. I think he gets that it can't go on forever, and they can't build this independence because Ruby's based on Ruby, because she's not going to always be around. She's not going to always be available. And I think he just, for some reason, he catches onto that before the parents do. Maybe it's because he's younger, he's more of a peer. He has friends same age, so who knows? It's not on camera, but for whatever reason, he just gets it a little quicker And I think he's a key factor in the movie making that sort of transition happen.

Jodi Beckstine (29:55):

Yeah. There's several moments where he tries to step forward in place of Ruby, and he's kind of shoved aside, and you can see that frustration in him. There's a key moment where he talks. It's towards the end of the movie where he talks about, "We were fine before you were born." They made it work before she was even in existence. So, they'll make it work again. And it's such a powerful line because it's true. They can do things without her. They've kind of made themselves dependent on her. But it's also painful to Ruby like it doesn't matter if I was born, or not. You could see that, the wound that it causes in her. And I just remember watching that moment being like, "Oh, I can't believe he said that."

Keith Casebonnne (30:45):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jodi Beckstine (30:48):

I think he realizes that she can't save them.

Keith Casebonnne (30:51):

Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a little bit of that older sibling complex too where I think he wants to be more of the savior, and help out more.

Jodi Beckstine (31:01):

Sure.

Keith Casebonnne (31:03):

He's the older brother. He wants to be the guy. It's a trope, but the guy in charge, and handling things. And I think there's maybe almost like, I don't want to say jealousy, but a little bit of that maybe in there. But it's a great character, and the dynamic is important for the movie.

Jodi Beckstine (31:21):

Yeah, absolutely.

Keith Casebonnne (31:24):

Well, so that takes us to one of the biggest issues in the film, which is communication access. That's really what all this is about in the beginning. We see Ruby interpreting in situations where a teenager should not be responsible for making sure adults are understood. What did those scenes bring up for you?

Jodi Beckstine (31:41):

Oh, it made me sad because there's opportunity there for the community to step in. She's in a doctor's office with her parents. There's absolutely no reason why the child should be there interpreting when the facility should have the option for the parents to have this conversation. There's things available, and that's just unaccessible in my mind. When she's in front of the town, and the people talking about how much money they're getting for their fishing, and all that, she's in this group of mostly adult males all talking rough, and cussing at each other, and saying things to each other, and she's sitting there trying to interpret. It puts her in a very awkward position. There's things that the community could have done to include the father, and son there as business owners. There's just so many missed opportunities where she, because she's available, they've made her available always that the community doesn't have to take responsibility for including this family. They get an easy ticket into not having to worry about it because she's just there, and Ruby will come. Ruby will help us hear what they have to say. So, it's a shame.

Keith Casebonnne (33:16):

But that makes Ruby feel more like she's just an accommodation sometimes, I think. And again, her life is maybe, or not her life, but her wants, and her goals maybe aren't as important in the moment because the family needs her. There's times where there's a conflict where she's supposed to be with her singing coach, and she's constantly late because her parents keep on saying, "No, I need you here for this. I need you here for this." And sometimes they kind of even guilt her into it until she stays. And then again, it's like you're watching her destroy her future by staying, but I think she feels like she just ultimately has to, and it's sad. It's really sad.

Jodi Beckstine (34:00):

It was really frustrating. One of the major frustrating moments in the movie was her mom making her stay to do something, and it was like her last chance, like singing instructor was like, "That's it if you don't show up on time." And the mother was just like, "Why would that matter compared to what we're doing?"

Keith Casebonnne (34:22):

Exactly.

Jodi Beckstine (34:22):

"You're just going to go off, and sing. That doesn't do anything. And this is for the family." And it was so infuriating to me. I just remember feeling so extremely frustrated at that point. So, when communication breaks down with the fishing board, and the Coast Guard, which is another part that frustrated me horribly, the consequences are very serious. The family's work, income, and safety are all affected. How does that part of the story move the film beyond the family drama?

Keith Casebonnne (35:00):

Yeah. So, the fishing scenes, they show that this access is not just about comfort. This is where work, and safety, and economic stability all come into play, and their livelihood. I mean, again, this is how they live. This is how they make their money, and support their family. And so when things go wrong, and they don't have someone there that can interpret, or hear the alarms, for example, that they don't hear one point when the Coast Guard comes, that's really frustrating. And it shows that even though they're skilled workers, there's hearing systems that treat them as problems. And you understand why they've counted on Ruby so much, but it doesn't change the fact that it's frustrating to see that they have to rely on Ruby so much.

Jodi Beckstine (36:12):

Yeah. I got so frustrated by the person that was on the boat with them that could hear. I felt like Ruby was supposed to be there that day. She wasn't there, but I felt like that person really just set them up.

Keith Casebonnne (36:28):

Oh, yeah.

Jodi Beckstine (36:28):

And because the radio's going off, that person could easily have picked the radio up, and then got their attention, and told them that alarms were going off, the Coast Guard's showing up, screaming at them through a bullhorn. That person could have caught their attention so that they could see what was going out. But she chose to stand there silently, and just let it happen. And it felt like you want a person that can hear on the boat, you had a person that could hear on the boat, but you're penalizing them. I don't know. It just felt like, oh, it just made me so angry, and it just felt like she was just setting them up. And that scene just made me so frustrated.

Keith Casebonnne (37:11):

Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was so mad. So, after we see how much Ruby is needed at home, her love of singing starts to become more than just a hobby. It becomes the first thing in the movie that it feels like it really belongs only to her. Why do you think music matters so much to Ruby?

Jodi Beckstine (37:33):

I think that is exactly what you said. It seems like it's something that just belongs to her. She can share her love of music with her family, and we see that towards the end of it, but it's something that only she's interested in. So, it's her own little thing, and it's something that is almost surprising to her when she kind of discovers it because she's always sang, it was the first scene we hear her singing, but it was never anything until she tried to follow a boy, and join choir, and then it kind of became this thing. And she discovered something about herself outside of everything that's going on. And then she became needed in another way because now she's got this solo, or this duet, and this thing, and an audition, and there's these other needs now for her that aren't fishing, and aren't interpreting. So, it just kind of opened a world for her that she didn't really think she could be part of. And it was nice to watch. It was nice to see.

Keith Casebonnne (38:54):

It was. It was. And another thing that I think that adds to it is that it adds the teacher. Now there's a relationship with this teacher who I think you could argue is really like a mentor in this case to her for singing. And I think that of course he's pushing her sometimes very directly. But I think that dynamic is good because it does start to make her see, and understand that there are other things that are important to her, and that she does have the own personal right, her own personal fortitude to move forward with that. I mean, she needs to be who she needs to be. And I think the teacher is a good catalyst for that, and really needed. Yeah, very important.

Jodi Beckstine (39:46):

And the introduction of her love of music is where the film kind of gets a little bit more complicated because I talked about this duet that she was preparing for. There's this concert scene, and it's powerful for hearing viewers because the sound drops out, and you get a little bit of an experience of what Ruby's family is experiencing. They're sitting in silence watching these students that can't really lip-read from that far away, and they see the crowd kind of having different reactions. And this is kind of where people kind of kick back a little bit because the film at that moment is framing music through hearing loss instead of through deaf culture. So, did that scene work for you, or do you think how they could have done it differently?

Keith Casebonnne (40:39):

It's a really good question because I mean, you're right, and I guess I sort of see the limits of filmmaking, and I'm not sure how else they could maybe have handled the scene, but I will argue that there's elements earlier in the movie that do sort of share how the deaf community interacts with music because in one of the early scenes, I think it's both the dad, and the mom pull up in their truck to pick her up from school, and there is rap music. I forget what he said it was. Did he say it was gangster rap, or I forget now.

Jodi Beckstine (41:16):

Yeah, yeah.

Keith Casebonnne (41:17):

Yeah, he loves gangster rap. Well, you're like, "Huh? How does he love gangster rap?" Well, he likes the beat. He feels the bass. He can feel the vibration that the bass creates. Now he's got the radio maxed.

Jodi Beckstine (41:31):

Way too loud.

Keith Casebonnne (41:32):

Which is just very embarrassing to Ruby. They're pulling up with the rap just blasting, and she's just like, "Oh, my God, guys, turn it down." So, I do think there's an element there that is showing how people who are deaf can interact with music, and it can still be part of their life. It's one example. There's other ways. And I think there's other films like The Sound of Metal, I think might've done a better job with some of that actually understanding that, but at least it is something that they tried to throw in there to show that music is not just gone necessarily. There is an aspect to that. Does that make up for the scene later that we're referring to? I mean, maybe not really make up for it, but I think there was an attempt. I think they were trying to show that this is a bigger issue than just, "Oh, I can't hear that she's singing."

Jodi Beckstine (42:27):

Definitely.

Keith Casebonnne (42:28):

Yeah. So, I think the silence, it's important, it's emotionally effective, but you're right, it is mainly for hearing viewers, and having this perception of the sound just going out, and it's not the same. Yeah.

Jodi Beckstine (42:48):

Yeah. As a hearing viewer with no direct connections to the deaf community, it worked. It worked for me.

Keith Casebonnne (42:57):

Same, same. Yeah. Yeah.

Jodi Beckstine (42:59):

I started looking at the crowd, and seeing how they were reacting, and what they were doing, and trying to gather the same type of information that her family is gathering from it, so-

Keith Casebonnne (43:10):

And what if that was me? How would I feel seeing... Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Jodi Beckstine (43:12):

Are they really seeing how much people love what she's doing? Are they really seeing how good she is based on their only ability to see what's going on around them? So, I figure there's a gray area there, but at least in my experience, I think they did a great job.

Keith Casebonnne (43:33):

Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. I think in the end it worked. Again, it's limits of filmmaking the thinking lingo so far, but like I say, I argue other movies have maybe pushed it a little bit, but I don't think the story's more about Ruby, and moving forward. And so if the movie was really more directly about the family, and their perceptions of it, which is an element, but it's not the main driving factor, I think that it would've been more important to try to figure out more ways to include it.

Jodi Beckstine (44:06):

Yeah. The protagonist is a person with hearing as opposed to the protagonist being someone who's deaf.

Keith Casebonnne (44:14):

Yeah, exactly. Well, one of the most moving scenes comes from when Frank asks Ruby to sing for him while he feels her throat. It's quiet, and intimate, and it feels like he is trying to understand this part of her without pretending he experiences the same way. What did that moment say to you?

Jodi Beckstine (44:32):

Oh, it was so sweet. It was such a sweet, and tender moment. It was a moment that we saw him in a different way. We've seen him be funny. We've seen him be kind of crass, and angry at what's going on. This was him really trying to make this connection, and you felt that he loved Ruby through the whole film, but you really see this, "This is my baby girl." You see that, and it really gave him such depth, and it was that turning point of him trying to really understand her, and what her needs are, and what he could give to her. So, I think it was just such a wonderful, tender moment.

Keith Casebonnne (45:21):

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I mentioned to you before we were recording that I'm always a sucker for father-daughter scenes because I have two daughters. And so that scene, I mean, two seconds in, tears are just pouring. It was so emotional. It really works. It's a beautiful scene. And beforehand, we see Frank as a fun-loving guy. He's worried about his work, and that kind of thing. He's funny, and he's stressed out, and whatever, but now we see him as something much more. He is a loving father, and someone that's recognizing that this is something important for his daughter, and he wants to try to understand it. He's strong, he's really making the effort to understand it, and this is how. And it's different.

(46:07):

It's a different way than many of us would understand hearing someone sing. I think that's all the more beautiful. And it's another aspect that I think mirrors aspects of deaf culture. And again, why I feel like that scene of the concert isn't as... I think it's another good example of showing, yeah, but this is a connection to music that is part of deaf culture. It is very different, but we are showing that to you.

Jodi Beckstine (46:41):

Yeah. His connection is either through gangster rap, or now hearing the vibrations that she's making her own. She's making those vibrations for him to hear. Yeah, it's lovely. It's lovely scene.

Keith Casebonnne (46:52):

It is.

Jodi Beckstine (46:54):

So, by the time Ruby auditions for Berkeley, the family has to show up with her now in a new way. They cannot follow every part of her dream, but they can still give support. How does the audition scene change the family dynamic?

Keith Casebonnne (47:13):

Yeah, that's another really beautiful thing. I think it's sort of like what her dad brought to her by trying to understand, feel what she's feeling by singing, and trying to experience it. I think it's almost like her way in return for now bringing them in. And so it's like, yes, she knows that they don't know the word she's saying. So, to include them, she signs while singing. And I think that's another really beautiful scene, and so touching. And again, reinforces how close this family is, and it's beautiful, and I feel like it gives her confidence, and she's really not hitting it at first the teacher's not there, the family's not there.

(47:58):

Then the teacher shows up, then the family shows up, and you could just see that things building this, but especially when her parents kind of sneak in to the top level of the auditorium there, she opens up, and it's like her thank you to them is she starts signing. It's kind of what it felt to me. It was like, thank you, and now I'm giving you something back so you can enjoy this. You're not just doing it for me, now hopefully you get something out of it as well.

Jodi Beckstine (48:32):

Yeah. You can be part of this too. I think there was the moment the judges, or whoever was watching her said something like, "You have no background in music. You've taken choir class this year. Why would you be auditioning for Berkeley?" And they just kind of say that. But then when she starts signing, that same gentleman kind of looks up to where she's signing to, and sees her family, and it dawns on him. It dawns on him, ding, ding, ding. That's why she doesn't have this background, which makes her abilities even more wonderful, because it's not something she's been practicing for 18 years. It's this natural talent that's coming out of her that he's hearing. So, I think that's just, I love that scene.

Keith Casebonnne (49:18):

I do too. And I love the fact that the judge gets it, and doesn't kick them out because they're breaking the rules technically, but gives them a pass. So, I think it's great.

Jodi Beckstine (49:29):

Yeah, absolutely.

Keith Casebonnne (49:31):

Well, at the end, when Ruby leaves her college, and the family begins adjusting to life without her as that constant bridge to hearing people, how did you feel? Did the ending make you feel hopeful, or how did you feel?

Jodi Beckstine (49:46):

Good. It wasn't as sad as normally you see people going away, endings are. I felt like they showed a little montage of things the mom talking to these other ladies in town [inaudible 00:50:04] and the gap that Ruby left is now going to be filled by the community, which it should have been the whole time, but it does make me feel hopeful for the family, and she's not deserting them, you know what I mean? She's going on to do her thing. They're going to continue doing their thing. Leo's going to step up, and do his thing. So, it just felt like a really nice wrap in a bow ending.

Keith Casebonnne (50:39):

Yeah, I agree. I thought it was really uplifting, and positive in that same exact way. I love that montage. I know one of the scenes where the wife's talking to some other women under a tent, or whatever, I feel like I remember seeing another person trying to sign. So, there's this impression that yes, they are trying to work. The only thing about it that does give me a little tiny bit of pause is that it happens almost too easily. It's probably not going to be that, and they don't say how much time has passed, or anything. It could be months later. Who knows? But you get that feeling like, okay, well, everyone's just run around the family, and create... I mean, real life doesn't fully, fully work that way, but it's okay. It's a movie. It doesn't have to be fully, fully real life. And the message trying to send is clear. But yeah, I wish it happened that easily in real life that the interpreter's gone, and suddenly everyone else decides, "Oh, we got to learn how to sign, and be..." Yeah, right.

Jodi Beckstine (51:40):

Yeah. Where have they been for the past 18 years?

Keith Casebonnne (51:43):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it does take it away. It's a beautiful ending. I agree.

Jodi Beckstine (51:47):

Yeah, absolutely.

Keith Casebonnne (51:49):

Well, CODA is an emotional film, and it is easy to understand why so many people connected with it. It gives us a family that is funny, loving, flawed, and deeply bonded. It also gave major roles to deaf actors, and brought ASL to a larger audience in a way that many viewers had not seen before.

Jodi Beckstine (52:07):

At the same time, this film is worth discussing carefully. It gives us strong moments of connection, but it also raises real question about whose point of view is centered, how community access is handled, and how often families are expected to solve barriers they did not create. Real access gives people choices. Real support gives families room to grow.

Keith Casebonnne (52:29):

That's our episode for today. A huge thank you to Stephanie Woodward for joining us, and sharing more about her work, her story, and the power of mentorship, leadership, and community for girls, women, and feminine people with disabilities.

Jodi Beckstine (52:41):

You can find this episode additional resources, and more conversations like this one at disabilityrightsflorida.org/podcast.

Keith Casebonnne (52:51):

If this conversation stayed with you, we sure hope you'll share it with someone else.

Jodi Beckstine (52:55):

Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. Disability Deep Dive is a podcast that is brought to you by Disability Rights Florida, where real conversations about life, culture, and ideas meet the lived disability experience. Follow us on YouTube, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us at disabilityrightsflorida.org/podcast.